How? Why? This could have incredibly dangerous consequences. Didn’t Trump send the national guard after a dodge employee was beaten up? Only time how he will exploit this situation for further gaining power.
Seriously, I’m shocked how nonchalant people are reacting. Further escalation of political violence is extremely dangerous for the left at the moment and could be extremely lucrative for the Trump regime, which is constantly testing the water on how far they can go in terms of seizing power.
Don’t forget, it was also an assassination that was the trigger for the Kristallnacht. You hopefully are not quite at that stage, but it is events like this that moves you closer…
If it wasn’t this it was going to be something else. At least this definitely solved a problem permanently.
A repeat of something like the doge employee assult could fix some issues, but probably only temporarily and would ultimately have the same end result.
If there’s anything to learn from Kristallnacht is that there was never going to be enough capitulation and appeasement that would’ve prevented it and that appeasement ultimately works to multiply the harms done.
If it wasn’t this it was going to be something else.
Trump isn’t invincible. Stuff like the Epstein thing actually seemed to hurt him. This is a very convenient distraction.
At least this definitely solved a problem permanently.
What problem is solved? Kirk was a very effective propagator, especially with younger people, but he’s not irreplaceable. And his death is already being used as very effective propaganda.
A repeat of something like the doge employee assult could fix some issues
Again, what issue is solved? I don’t understand what you think this achieves. The main effect stuff like this has is giving the right effective propaganda material and escalating violence. And the left is not in a position where escalating violence benefits the US, quite the opposite.
there was never going to be enough capitulation
I do not suggest capitulation or appeasement… But in order to resist effectively, you need stronger organization. This makes organizing way more difficult.
Stuff like the Epstein thing actually seemed to hurt him.
The “Epstein thing” is never going to have reprecussions within Trump’s natural lifespan. Those “50yr birthday cards” that are getting showcased are over 24 years old at this point. Nearly twice the age of some of the alleged victims. Several of who have been saying, with signed testimonials and everything that Trump was there.
What evidence exactly do you want that you think would have any effect? From my perspective even if there was an explicit video of him unambiguously raping a child his supporters would claim it was a “deep fake” and anyone who viewed, distributed, or acknowledged it’s existence it would be serving 20yrs to life for CP possession. It might be acknowledged as fact 50 years afterwards, but by that point it really doesn’t matter.
he’s not irreplaceable
Nobody is perfectly replaceable. But I understand what you’re saying and I unfortunately don’t think your wrong, but it will take a lot of time and significant financial investment for someone else to fill that role. It’s how the state has kept “leftist” orgs down in the US for at least 50+ years.
There has never been another Fred Hampton, there will never be another Charlie Kirk.
You need stronger organization. This makes organizing way more difficult.
I agree fully on needing stronger organization, however the biggest issue I have found in most leftist organizing is there is little to no understanding or willingness for any form of self defense. I don’t see how this affects existing organizing methods, tactics, etc. Can you expand on what you’re seeing here?
The “Epstein thing” is never going to have reprecussions
It’s hard to tell, but it has disillusioned at least some of his supporters, showing that it is possible, at least for some people, to snap out of the cult. Obviously some will always support him, no matter what.
it will take a lot of time and significant financial investment for someone else to fill that role.
I don’t think it will hurt them in any significant way, maybe even the opposite. Kirk is still incredibly useful as a martyr figure and it’s not like he had much of an operational role. He was a propagandist and he will still be used to spread far right propaganda, even in his death.
I understand that he was incredibly influencial, but that’s mostly because he was a pioneer of the modern right who made the right wing cool to a younger audience, but his methods have since been adapted by many other right wing propagandists.
Or can you explain why you think his assasination will weaken or harm the right? Because I don’t see it.
it has disillusioned at least some of his supporters
Has it? You added a lot of weasel words to that claim there. If so what evidence specifically disillusioned them? Again from my perspective I hear a lot of “this will surely be the end of him” and then that predicted “end” never comes. My understanding is that disconnect comes from an inaccurate belief that there is equality under law, equality in reporting, etc.
Kirk is still incredibly useful as a martyr figure
Probably, but if martyr figures were that powerful then wouldn’t it be useful for ‘the left’ to also start martyring themselves? Martyrs can only ever do passive propoganda, Charlie was doing active propoganda and ultimately I don’t think Martyrs tend to be all that useful.
why you think his assasination will weaken or harm the right
one less active propagandist
power vacuum and loss of leadership within turning point
chilling effect on this sort of rhetoric
impulsive and poorly planned ‘retaliations’ causing further damage
The point is that Trumps image can change, even for his core supporters… I obviously have no clue exactly how many of his supporters were dissilusioned, which is why I will use “weasel words” (aka estimates and guesses)…
I hear a lot of “this will surely be the end of him”
I doubt that there will ever be the “one thing” where everyone suddenly realises they have been duked… Obviously that’s not how it works…
if martyr figures were that powerful
Ever heard of George Floyd? Trayvon Martin? Eric Garner? Those people weren’t even influencial to the left wing as a movement when they were alive (unlike Kirk), yet they still fueled one of the biggest movements in recent years.
start martyring themselves?
Some people do that, but in order to be powerful, they have to have been killed by the enemy you want to mobilize people against… Which is why the right will do whatever they can to blame this on “the radical left”, no matter what.
I don’t think Martyrs tend to be all that useful.
I think you are incredibly wrong on this point.
one less active propagandist
Pretty insignificant considering the countless other right wing propagandists out there who do pretty much the same thing. Also, events like this have a tendency to inspire more propagandists and radicalize people.
power vacuum and loss of leadership within turning point
Possible, but again, tp is not THAT important. They have turned a significant part of the youth and have a likeminded regime in power that continues to concolidate power. And they can an will use this event to consolidate more.
chilling effect on this sort of rhetoric
That’s not gonna happen…
impulsive and poorly planned ‘retaliations’ causing further damage
Damage to whom? You don’t know because the potential results are unpredictable.
I obviously have no clue exactly how many of his supporters were dissilusioned, which is why I will use “weasel words” (aka estimates and guesses)
If I had responded to your last question with this sort of “I have no clue, it’s just a guess” you would have, rightfully, called bullshit.
It might be naïvely optimistic of me but I refuse to believe that you have come to your beliefs purely based on ‘vibes’. Help me see what you see because I don’t see it.
If I’m wrong and you have extremely confident beliefs based entirely on “estimates and guesses” that is a serious fucking problem means you are, by definition, divorced from reality.
I doubt that there will ever be the “one thing”
Other than the Epstein files? :P
Seriously though, I wasn’t asking for “one thing” I was asking for being specific and providing an example of something that does so that we can establish where the goalpost and what is/isn’t effective.
Also 3 names from half a decade ago compared to the ~5500 deaths in the interim gives a “martyr success rate” of ~0.05%. I have a hard time believing Charlie will statistically be in the “successful martyr” group even if being a “influential” person is a 100x multiplier and even with such a pathetically low bar of “success”
Pretty insignificant considering the countless other right wing propagandists
It seems like you are falling for the same fallacy of there being “one singular influencer which will end it all”… Obviously that’s not how it works…
is not THAT important ___ continues to concolidate power.
You do see how that leads to them being “THAT important”? In my opinion any roadblock to those efforts and that desired outcome is a good thing.
Let’s try a different approach. Can you expand on why you think this will make left-wing organizing less effective/more difficult/etc.?
How? Why? This could have incredibly dangerous consequences. Didn’t Trump send the national guard after a dodge employee was beaten up? Only time how he will exploit this situation for further gaining power.
Seriously, I’m shocked how nonchalant people are reacting. Further escalation of political violence is extremely dangerous for the left at the moment and could be extremely lucrative for the Trump regime, which is constantly testing the water on how far they can go in terms of seizing power.
Don’t forget, it was also an assassination that was the trigger for the Kristallnacht. You hopefully are not quite at that stage, but it is events like this that moves you closer…
sometimes you like seeing turds get flushed even though your anus is sore
If it wasn’t this it was going to be something else. At least this definitely solved a problem permanently.
A repeat of something like the doge employee assult could fix some issues, but probably only temporarily and would ultimately have the same end result.
If there’s anything to learn from Kristallnacht is that there was never going to be enough capitulation and appeasement that would’ve prevented it and that appeasement ultimately works to multiply the harms done.
Trump isn’t invincible. Stuff like the Epstein thing actually seemed to hurt him. This is a very convenient distraction.
What problem is solved? Kirk was a very effective propagator, especially with younger people, but he’s not irreplaceable. And his death is already being used as very effective propaganda.
Again, what issue is solved? I don’t understand what you think this achieves. The main effect stuff like this has is giving the right effective propaganda material and escalating violence. And the left is not in a position where escalating violence benefits the US, quite the opposite.
I do not suggest capitulation or appeasement… But in order to resist effectively, you need stronger organization. This makes organizing way more difficult.
The “Epstein thing” is never going to have reprecussions within Trump’s natural lifespan. Those “50yr birthday cards” that are getting showcased are over 24 years old at this point. Nearly twice the age of some of the alleged victims. Several of who have been saying, with signed testimonials and everything that Trump was there.
What evidence exactly do you want that you think would have any effect? From my perspective even if there was an explicit video of him unambiguously raping a child his supporters would claim it was a “deep fake” and anyone who viewed, distributed, or acknowledged it’s existence it would be serving 20yrs to life for CP possession. It might be acknowledged as fact 50 years afterwards, but by that point it really doesn’t matter.
Nobody is perfectly replaceable. But I understand what you’re saying and I unfortunately don’t think your wrong, but it will take a lot of time and significant financial investment for someone else to fill that role. It’s how the state has kept “leftist” orgs down in the US for at least 50+ years.
There has never been another Fred Hampton, there will never be another Charlie Kirk.
I agree fully on needing stronger organization, however the biggest issue I have found in most leftist organizing is there is little to no understanding or willingness for any form of self defense. I don’t see how this affects existing organizing methods, tactics, etc. Can you expand on what you’re seeing here?
It’s hard to tell, but it has disillusioned at least some of his supporters, showing that it is possible, at least for some people, to snap out of the cult. Obviously some will always support him, no matter what.
I don’t think it will hurt them in any significant way, maybe even the opposite. Kirk is still incredibly useful as a martyr figure and it’s not like he had much of an operational role. He was a propagandist and he will still be used to spread far right propaganda, even in his death.
I understand that he was incredibly influencial, but that’s mostly because he was a pioneer of the modern right who made the right wing cool to a younger audience, but his methods have since been adapted by many other right wing propagandists.
Or can you explain why you think his assasination will weaken or harm the right? Because I don’t see it.
Has it? You added a lot of weasel words to that claim there. If so what evidence specifically disillusioned them? Again from my perspective I hear a lot of “this will surely be the end of him” and then that predicted “end” never comes. My understanding is that disconnect comes from an inaccurate belief that there is equality under law, equality in reporting, etc.
Probably, but if martyr figures were that powerful then wouldn’t it be useful for ‘the left’ to also start martyring themselves? Martyrs can only ever do passive propoganda, Charlie was doing active propoganda and ultimately I don’t think Martyrs tend to be all that useful.
Yep.
The point is that Trumps image can change, even for his core supporters… I obviously have no clue exactly how many of his supporters were dissilusioned, which is why I will use “weasel words” (aka estimates and guesses)…
I doubt that there will ever be the “one thing” where everyone suddenly realises they have been duked… Obviously that’s not how it works…
Ever heard of George Floyd? Trayvon Martin? Eric Garner? Those people weren’t even influencial to the left wing as a movement when they were alive (unlike Kirk), yet they still fueled one of the biggest movements in recent years.
Some people do that, but in order to be powerful, they have to have been killed by the enemy you want to mobilize people against… Which is why the right will do whatever they can to blame this on “the radical left”, no matter what.
I think you are incredibly wrong on this point.
Pretty insignificant considering the countless other right wing propagandists out there who do pretty much the same thing. Also, events like this have a tendency to inspire more propagandists and radicalize people.
Possible, but again, tp is not THAT important. They have turned a significant part of the youth and have a likeminded regime in power that continues to concolidate power. And they can an will use this event to consolidate more.
That’s not gonna happen…
Damage to whom? You don’t know because the potential results are unpredictable.
Like Trump’s failed assassinations?
By what metrics?
If I had responded to your last question with this sort of “I have no clue, it’s just a guess” you would have, rightfully, called bullshit.
It might be naïvely optimistic of me but I refuse to believe that you have come to your beliefs purely based on ‘vibes’. Help me see what you see because I don’t see it.
If I’m wrong and you have extremely confident beliefs based entirely on “estimates and guesses” that is a serious fucking problem means you are, by definition, divorced from reality.
Other than the Epstein files? :P
Seriously though, I wasn’t asking for “one thing” I was asking for being specific and providing an example of something that does so that we can establish where the goalpost and what is/isn’t effective.
Yep and the problem has gotten worse since then. IE not an effective solution to the problem.
Also 3 names from half a decade ago compared to the ~5500 deaths in the interim gives a “martyr success rate” of ~0.05%. I have a hard time believing Charlie will statistically be in the “successful martyr” group even if being a “influential” person is a 100x multiplier and even with such a pathetically low bar of “success”
It seems like you are falling for the same fallacy of there being “one singular influencer which will end it all”… Obviously that’s not how it works…
You do see how that leads to them being “THAT important”? In my opinion any roadblock to those efforts and that desired outcome is a good thing.
Let’s try a different approach. Can you expand on why you think this will make left-wing organizing less effective/more difficult/etc.?
Yes, I agree, but those fears took a bit to set in. Whereas my initial reaction was to “person who supports your extermination is no longer”