dandelion (she/her)

also, who has the time and money to bail on work, pay upfront for hotel rooms and lawyers, and do this? I mean, someone - but probablynot enough people to make large corporations that worried about it, though I could be wrong about that.

Yes, but we continue to fail to communicate - I was never undermining your point about material commitments, I think that point is well-taken, it’s the conclusions you draw that I disagree with, i.e. in terms of lumping the capitalist class together with members of the working class … When I say Che Guevara was a valuable member of the revolution, it is to highlight an example of how valuable class consciousness can be from members of the working class who are more privileged but are not members of the capitalist class.

I wish to resist the tendency to view someone like a software engineer as equivalent to the capitalist class, just because material incentives exist. A software engineer is not a capitalist, they are working class, and the revolution is served by viewing professional and managerial workers as workers, worthy of being included and incorporated into the revolution. Not because they are that way already, I am agreeing with you by suggesting the opposite, that they aren’t aware of their status as working class because they have some material incentives, so they align with the wrong class interests.

The right response to this, in my opinion, is to work on raising their class consciousness, while it feels like you are suggesting the opposite (essentially lumping them together and furthering the entrenched idea that they are helplessly aligned with the capitalists and thus basically capitalists themselves).

sure, but it doesn’t feel particularly relevant, those people aren’t that different from less economically privileged working class folks who defend capitalism despite gaining no material benefit from doing so. The upper middle classes that align that way are still exploited in their jobs and victims of the system they align with, and that’s no different than everyone else. Division among the working classes doesn’t help our cause, and those middle upper classes would be some of the most valuable allies in cultivating change if their consciousness was raised, since they at least are not completely empty-handed. Think of people like Che Guevara who had such immense influence - he was precisely one of those middle upper class people whose consciousness was raised when he witnessed the American-backed coup in Guatemala.

we’re talking about the average person; the idea that the average person in the US is using their higher income as savings to compensate for lack of social programs is delusional imo, I think most people have significant debt and will just fall between the cracks if they lose their job or get sick and can’t work, etc.

focusing on income is distorting, socially and politically some of the wealthiest and most powerful people have the lowest incomes, it’s just not the best lens of evaluating power or wealth.

as if anyone in America is saving their money 🤣

I don’t really see what is wrong with authentically egalitarian politics, so I’m inclined to think the “center” is just a euphemism for right-wing.

If a left wing movement fails in its egalitarianism, like when the USSR had slave camps, then I think we should not think of that movement as left wing at all, it just fails the definition of being left wing.

The common response to this is that it is a form of no true scotsman fallacy, which I think could be a legitimate concern since you might define a left wing ideal as the definition and anything failing to live up to the perfection of that ideal is not “left”. But on the other hand, I don’t know how else to consider some politics authentically egalitarian and worth supporting and others inauthentic or corrupt and embodying hierarchical or right-wing tendencies. Maybe there is no bright line we can draw or reduce to a logical equation, but I would like to think there is still some value in evaluating which politics to support (i.e. which politics are furthering egalitarian means or ends).

let’s keep it that way, the right-wing should be unwelcome everywhere